I think about ‘structure’ instead of discipline even though they can serve similar purposes. I have ASD and I LOVE structure but I don’t like being told what to do AT ALL (ie discipline).
I was never spanked as a child by my parents although I was once caned by the headmaster at junior school (yes! I know) for pissing in a cup that was already in the urinal. Show me a 7 year old boy who would choose not to piss in a cup in front of him. That headmaster is dead now although I’d like to make it clear I had nothing to do with that
Well, there are some disturbing images of spanking.
My siblings were spanked a lot, but as a 'good girl' who was 'No trouble at all' I escaped it, except once.
I wanted a skipping rope with wooden handles, and whilst shopping with my mum in Woolworths, she bought me the wrong kind. I starting crying, and couldn't stop, so she 'gave me something to cry about'. Round the back of Woolworths, knickers down, totally humiliating. Then boasted for years to come that she only had to smack me once in my childhood. Because I was f***in terrified of the humiliation.
By the way, I stopped being a 'good girl' eventually, and caused lots of trouble.
I know. I found this very rich source in the Look and Learn archive, postcards and allsorts. It was so normalised!
Oh yes, "I'll give you something to cry about," I remember that phrase, how vile is that. To punish a child just for expressing emotion. No wonder we are so messed up.
I too was a "good girl" and I couldn't believe how often I got smacked. I now realise it was just because mum was very unhappy in her marriage and taking it out on us. In the end I realised there was no point at all in being a good girl, so I went totally off the rails: underage drinking, sex, drugs and arson. And you know what? By then my mum was so disconnected from my life that she didn't even know/notice!
How much easier it would have been for your mum to just take the skipping rope back to the till and swap it for the one you wanted. What a ludicrous reason to traumatise a child.
I guess the tyranny of being smacked and the tyranny of the *threat* of being smacked can have the same result in the end, in terms of rebellion!
I was actually with her when she bought it; I think I cried because she hadn't listened to me. A recurring motif in my childhood, and crying was the only thing I could do. No control over lots of things. My mum took her unhappiness in her marriage out on her children, too. If at home, she'd smack with a plastic spatula. Also threw a goldfish bowl at my brother's head one time, water, goldfish and all.
Oh my lord, that's so dreadful. The patriarchy has a lot to answer for, it feels like; all these unhappy women taking it out on their children, and their husbands not even aware (quite often) that anything is wrong.
Not being listened to (especially by your own mother) is a source of great pain.
I definitely resonate strongly with the sentiment of not being able to not write. It's hard when I'm convinced that my manuscripts are pretty lousy, and am not sure that any amount of polishing will fix that. But that's OK. I said I liked writing, not publishing! Even the Substack publishing is still completely harrowing.
You might only need the advice of someone (a literary teacher?) who can look over your work and give you advice including the likely fact that most of your fears are in your head and not because of the page.
Well it's great that you like writing (if not publishing, not yet) :-). I'll echo what Thomas Cleary said, maybe feedback (from someone who knows what they're doing; kind but incisive) would be useful for you. Sometimes it takes a lot longer getting confidence in our own words when we're doing it alone.
Oh yes, all this. When I was finishing my book, I would get up at 3AM and pad out in bare feet to my backyard studio to write because it seemed to be the only time I could escape the sense of fear and overwhelm that would grasp me during my normal waking hours day.
Someone said this to me when I was doing an MA in Creative Writing, but I replied that I'd rather be doing that than pretty much most other things I had to do. Writing a book on the other hand with no deadlines...filled with fear and avoidance!
Not unusual. Sometimes it's helpful just to make it fun again, and tell yourself you're doing it just for you. Because with no deadlines, you can definitely say that!
I simply love your writing, Ros. Your well-polished sentences certainly smacked me in the face! Thank you for the morning pick-up.
Quite a bit of discipline was needed to finish my memoir, but that's because I was writing about such painful and personal subjects that sometimes the last thing I wanted was to revisit that headspace. The flip side is it also provided a sort of free emersion therapy. Plus, I felt a desperate need to write my memories down. I do relate to you talking about first drafts sucking. I think writing a book is a process of continuing endlessly, even though you're well aware it sucks. So maybe less discipline and more perseverance?
Congratulations to your son on his engagement! How wonderful.
P.S. What is the 'tap' element of your morning routine? :)
That is lovely to hear, Emma. Ah yes, the painful stuff can be hard to drag ourselves back to. But also, as you say, there is therapeutic value in doing so. Perserverance, definitely. I rather like the definition of 'grit' - https://angeladuckworth.com/grit-scale/
There is more exciting news on the son's engagement front but I might turn that into a post.
The 'tap' part is EFT (Emotional Freedom Technique) aka 'tapping', as invented by Gary Craig. I first used his free tutorials in 2007 and then got some quality training from Karl Dawson (who was trained by Gary Craig). As a sensitive person, I have found it invaluable for processing trauma and clearing out negative emotion. There are numerous ways of learning it now, but also some very 'lite' versions that are less effective (including video tap-alongs). But the deep-work stuff remains excellent.
I loved reading about ‘grit,’ thank you for sharing! I also look forward to reading more about your son’s engagement.
Thank you for the explanation of tapping! I had heard of it before but hadn’t put two and two together. My silly brain was picturing early morning tap dancing! (Though that does sound fun.) I also identify as a sensitive person, so I’ll have to do some more research on tapping and try it out myself. I’ve had a very stressful week moving house and could certainly do with more tools for managing my anxiety.
I love the idea of tap dancing in the morning; might add that in! hahaha ow. The other kind of tapping has been such a game changer that I can't image life without it. I hope your experiments with it bear fruit. Go gently but courageously. It can be powerful but on the other side of those powerful emotions is peace, so tap all the way through them. Gary Craig's training remains the best training but he's gone a bit full-on spiritual on his site these days so it gets harder to send people there.
I feel just as you do, though Novel Three has been so tough to edit that I’m writing Book Four while I have a breather. It\s determination rather than discipline that keeps me going I think.
Thank you for pointing out that it is a passion to create that gets the work done. It's that passion that gives one the patience to rewrite and rewrite, to cut and change, and finish, then put it out there for all to see. I have a lot on my plate right now, but I figure if I'm suppose to get some writing done, there will be an opportunity to do it some time during the day. I just have to be open to it and apply myself. Thanks for the insights, Ros.
I'm currently struggling with completing works because I fear that no one will want to read them. I know the wisdom is to write, put it out there, market it, and then get started on the next one. I just struggle with the idea of sunk time, even though I know that you learn a lot about the craft just by writing. Any advice welcome.
I'm not sure 'write, put it out there, market it' is actually the wisest thing at all. I personally value the idea of apprenticeship, so write things, complete them if you can, and then write more things... but only put them out there if you're really happy with them. Because our earliest pieces are never our best, and you don't necessarily want to be making those impressions on people because then they won't look at the stuff you do later. I think with Substack yes, write, put it out, keep writing, keeping putting it out, and improve in the process. But with books? I'm not a fan. My debut novel was the fourth novel I completed and I'm glad the others aren't out there. It allowed me to hone my craft and make a big impression. I would write as much as you can, discovering whether there is an appetite for what you've written by testing them on a limited audience (this is where writing workshops and feedback groups are good). But don't market anything you don't 100% believe in, is my suggestion.
Thank you, this advice makes a lot of sense. I like the idea of the first few works being the apprenticeship and then truly publishing when I feel like what I write responds well with a limited audience.
Writing every day is what keeps me going, even if it’s only a shopping list! I like your image of fear as an very annoying passenger… mine has been yelling at me this week but now I’ll sit her in the back seat with headphones and she can just relax and be quiet!
I totally agree - discipline is not part of my writing schedule. In fact, I write when I have both time and inspiration. Sadly, I have less of the former but my enthusiasm for getting a story on screen never falters. Good luck with your writing, Ros, and I look forward to reading more of your novels. - Lauretta -
My parents almost never spanked me but I was very frightened of my Dad at times but school was good at the hitting. I grew up believing in discipline , and also constant achievement, which luckily, I failed at. Wendy (my partner) threatens to discipline her children but they laugh because she never does. She bases a healthy upbringing on love. I am quite a convert!
Love is the healthiest upbringing there is; good on Wendy. Yes, there was still the slipper (for girls) and the cane (for boys) at school when I was growing up. Happily never got hit at school, at least.
I think I need courage more than anything. Fear does hold me back from creating what I love. If my courage is greater than my fear, I accomplish a lot.
As children (1960s) my slightly older sister and I were 'belted' fairly often. Our Father would dramatically pull his belt from the trouser loops, double it over and whip us a few times on the buttocks and backs of our legs. Neither sister nor I can remember what dire crimes we committed to warrant this. I believe he had a troubled, probably violent upbringing, but I don't know. When asked about his life (even harmless things like: 'what was your first job?' 'Where did you meet mum?") he'd say nothing. It's a shame that the 'belt whipping' is my clearest memory of him.
That's awful. Belting is so much worse that slaps. Yes, it sounds like he was just replying stuff that had happened to him; there we go, generational trauma again. Really sad that he couldn't tell you anything about his life, and that belt whipping your clearest memory. Parents of a certain type/generation keep themselves very separate from their kids, but it always feels like that comes out of their being abused by their own parents.
Fear had kept my writing inside or restricted to minimal outside scrutiny until this year. Substack and support from unexpected quarters has helped me move it to the back seat 💚
I must have been pretty good as my parents had to remember back to when I was 2 and had to be spanked. No idea what for. It definitely wasn’t a regular occurrence, even to my brother who was pretty naughty 😏
Well done for avoiding being smacked; sounds like that punishment at 2 had a lasting effect. Start early, I guess! I'm glad you've managed to move fear to the back seat. Long may it remain there!
I think about ‘structure’ instead of discipline even though they can serve similar purposes. I have ASD and I LOVE structure but I don’t like being told what to do AT ALL (ie discipline).
I was never spanked as a child by my parents although I was once caned by the headmaster at junior school (yes! I know) for pissing in a cup that was already in the urinal. Show me a 7 year old boy who would choose not to piss in a cup in front of him. That headmaster is dead now although I’d like to make it clear I had nothing to do with that
Your last sentence! Excellent work. Yes, ridiculous to cane a 7 year old for that.
Just like me, then, on the structure vs discipline
Well, there are some disturbing images of spanking.
My siblings were spanked a lot, but as a 'good girl' who was 'No trouble at all' I escaped it, except once.
I wanted a skipping rope with wooden handles, and whilst shopping with my mum in Woolworths, she bought me the wrong kind. I starting crying, and couldn't stop, so she 'gave me something to cry about'. Round the back of Woolworths, knickers down, totally humiliating. Then boasted for years to come that she only had to smack me once in my childhood. Because I was f***in terrified of the humiliation.
By the way, I stopped being a 'good girl' eventually, and caused lots of trouble.
I know. I found this very rich source in the Look and Learn archive, postcards and allsorts. It was so normalised!
Oh yes, "I'll give you something to cry about," I remember that phrase, how vile is that. To punish a child just for expressing emotion. No wonder we are so messed up.
I too was a "good girl" and I couldn't believe how often I got smacked. I now realise it was just because mum was very unhappy in her marriage and taking it out on us. In the end I realised there was no point at all in being a good girl, so I went totally off the rails: underage drinking, sex, drugs and arson. And you know what? By then my mum was so disconnected from my life that she didn't even know/notice!
How much easier it would have been for your mum to just take the skipping rope back to the till and swap it for the one you wanted. What a ludicrous reason to traumatise a child.
I guess the tyranny of being smacked and the tyranny of the *threat* of being smacked can have the same result in the end, in terms of rebellion!
I was actually with her when she bought it; I think I cried because she hadn't listened to me. A recurring motif in my childhood, and crying was the only thing I could do. No control over lots of things. My mum took her unhappiness in her marriage out on her children, too. If at home, she'd smack with a plastic spatula. Also threw a goldfish bowl at my brother's head one time, water, goldfish and all.
Oh my lord, that's so dreadful. The patriarchy has a lot to answer for, it feels like; all these unhappy women taking it out on their children, and their husbands not even aware (quite often) that anything is wrong.
Not being listened to (especially by your own mother) is a source of great pain.
I definitely resonate strongly with the sentiment of not being able to not write. It's hard when I'm convinced that my manuscripts are pretty lousy, and am not sure that any amount of polishing will fix that. But that's OK. I said I liked writing, not publishing! Even the Substack publishing is still completely harrowing.
You might only need the advice of someone (a literary teacher?) who can look over your work and give you advice including the likely fact that most of your fears are in your head and not because of the page.
Well it's great that you like writing (if not publishing, not yet) :-). I'll echo what Thomas Cleary said, maybe feedback (from someone who knows what they're doing; kind but incisive) would be useful for you. Sometimes it takes a lot longer getting confidence in our own words when we're doing it alone.
Oh yes, all this. When I was finishing my book, I would get up at 3AM and pad out in bare feet to my backyard studio to write because it seemed to be the only time I could escape the sense of fear and overwhelm that would grasp me during my normal waking hours day.
Funny how emotions operate differently in different hours. There’s something very lovely about writing when the world sleeps.
Someone said this to me when I was doing an MA in Creative Writing, but I replied that I'd rather be doing that than pretty much most other things I had to do. Writing a book on the other hand with no deadlines...filled with fear and avoidance!
Not unusual. Sometimes it's helpful just to make it fun again, and tell yourself you're doing it just for you. Because with no deadlines, you can definitely say that!
Yes! That's exactly what I told myself this morning before I read your post. Make it fun again 😊
You barely needed to read it at all then!
I simply love your writing, Ros. Your well-polished sentences certainly smacked me in the face! Thank you for the morning pick-up.
Quite a bit of discipline was needed to finish my memoir, but that's because I was writing about such painful and personal subjects that sometimes the last thing I wanted was to revisit that headspace. The flip side is it also provided a sort of free emersion therapy. Plus, I felt a desperate need to write my memories down. I do relate to you talking about first drafts sucking. I think writing a book is a process of continuing endlessly, even though you're well aware it sucks. So maybe less discipline and more perseverance?
Congratulations to your son on his engagement! How wonderful.
P.S. What is the 'tap' element of your morning routine? :)
That is lovely to hear, Emma. Ah yes, the painful stuff can be hard to drag ourselves back to. But also, as you say, there is therapeutic value in doing so. Perserverance, definitely. I rather like the definition of 'grit' - https://angeladuckworth.com/grit-scale/
There is more exciting news on the son's engagement front but I might turn that into a post.
The 'tap' part is EFT (Emotional Freedom Technique) aka 'tapping', as invented by Gary Craig. I first used his free tutorials in 2007 and then got some quality training from Karl Dawson (who was trained by Gary Craig). As a sensitive person, I have found it invaluable for processing trauma and clearing out negative emotion. There are numerous ways of learning it now, but also some very 'lite' versions that are less effective (including video tap-alongs). But the deep-work stuff remains excellent.
I loved reading about ‘grit,’ thank you for sharing! I also look forward to reading more about your son’s engagement.
Thank you for the explanation of tapping! I had heard of it before but hadn’t put two and two together. My silly brain was picturing early morning tap dancing! (Though that does sound fun.) I also identify as a sensitive person, so I’ll have to do some more research on tapping and try it out myself. I’ve had a very stressful week moving house and could certainly do with more tools for managing my anxiety.
I love the idea of tap dancing in the morning; might add that in! hahaha ow. The other kind of tapping has been such a game changer that I can't image life without it. I hope your experiments with it bear fruit. Go gently but courageously. It can be powerful but on the other side of those powerful emotions is peace, so tap all the way through them. Gary Craig's training remains the best training but he's gone a bit full-on spiritual on his site these days so it gets harder to send people there.
Well, I thought morning tap dancing sounded rather joyful, if unexpected! haha
That’s good to know, thank you :)
I feel just as you do, though Novel Three has been so tough to edit that I’m writing Book Four while I have a breather. It\s determination rather than discipline that keeps me going I think.
Yes, as someone else said here, perseverance or 'grit' has a lot to do with it.
Thank you for pointing out that it is a passion to create that gets the work done. It's that passion that gives one the patience to rewrite and rewrite, to cut and change, and finish, then put it out there for all to see. I have a lot on my plate right now, but I figure if I'm suppose to get some writing done, there will be an opportunity to do it some time during the day. I just have to be open to it and apply myself. Thanks for the insights, Ros.
Pleasure, K.C.
I'm currently struggling with completing works because I fear that no one will want to read them. I know the wisdom is to write, put it out there, market it, and then get started on the next one. I just struggle with the idea of sunk time, even though I know that you learn a lot about the craft just by writing. Any advice welcome.
I'm not sure 'write, put it out there, market it' is actually the wisest thing at all. I personally value the idea of apprenticeship, so write things, complete them if you can, and then write more things... but only put them out there if you're really happy with them. Because our earliest pieces are never our best, and you don't necessarily want to be making those impressions on people because then they won't look at the stuff you do later. I think with Substack yes, write, put it out, keep writing, keeping putting it out, and improve in the process. But with books? I'm not a fan. My debut novel was the fourth novel I completed and I'm glad the others aren't out there. It allowed me to hone my craft and make a big impression. I would write as much as you can, discovering whether there is an appetite for what you've written by testing them on a limited audience (this is where writing workshops and feedback groups are good). But don't market anything you don't 100% believe in, is my suggestion.
Thank you, this advice makes a lot of sense. I like the idea of the first few works being the apprenticeship and then truly publishing when I feel like what I write responds well with a limited audience.
Writing every day is what keeps me going, even if it’s only a shopping list! I like your image of fear as an very annoying passenger… mine has been yelling at me this week but now I’ll sit her in the back seat with headphones and she can just relax and be quiet!
Yep, that's the best thing - visualise moving her gently into the back with the headphones so you can concentrate!
I totally agree - discipline is not part of my writing schedule. In fact, I write when I have both time and inspiration. Sadly, I have less of the former but my enthusiasm for getting a story on screen never falters. Good luck with your writing, Ros, and I look forward to reading more of your novels. - Lauretta -
Thank you, Lauretta!
My parents almost never spanked me but I was very frightened of my Dad at times but school was good at the hitting. I grew up believing in discipline , and also constant achievement, which luckily, I failed at. Wendy (my partner) threatens to discipline her children but they laugh because she never does. She bases a healthy upbringing on love. I am quite a convert!
Love is the healthiest upbringing there is; good on Wendy. Yes, there was still the slipper (for girls) and the cane (for boys) at school when I was growing up. Happily never got hit at school, at least.
I think I need courage more than anything. Fear does hold me back from creating what I love. If my courage is greater than my fear, I accomplish a lot.
Courage, absolutely. You have that equation spot on.
Let's face it peoples' attitudes are strange.
They surely are.
As children (1960s) my slightly older sister and I were 'belted' fairly often. Our Father would dramatically pull his belt from the trouser loops, double it over and whip us a few times on the buttocks and backs of our legs. Neither sister nor I can remember what dire crimes we committed to warrant this. I believe he had a troubled, probably violent upbringing, but I don't know. When asked about his life (even harmless things like: 'what was your first job?' 'Where did you meet mum?") he'd say nothing. It's a shame that the 'belt whipping' is my clearest memory of him.
That's awful. Belting is so much worse that slaps. Yes, it sounds like he was just replying stuff that had happened to him; there we go, generational trauma again. Really sad that he couldn't tell you anything about his life, and that belt whipping your clearest memory. Parents of a certain type/generation keep themselves very separate from their kids, but it always feels like that comes out of their being abused by their own parents.
Fear had kept my writing inside or restricted to minimal outside scrutiny until this year. Substack and support from unexpected quarters has helped me move it to the back seat 💚
I must have been pretty good as my parents had to remember back to when I was 2 and had to be spanked. No idea what for. It definitely wasn’t a regular occurrence, even to my brother who was pretty naughty 😏
Well done for avoiding being smacked; sounds like that punishment at 2 had a lasting effect. Start early, I guess! I'm glad you've managed to move fear to the back seat. Long may it remain there!